The people that plan on building a gas station/car wash/convenience store on 2216 Warrensville Center Road, University Heights, Ohio, didn't even show up at the special Council Meeting set up to make or break the gas station. The residents of University Heights that, instead, chose to show up, were greeted by a lawyer, that simply said that Waterway wanted a continuance. "To do what?" The gentleman was asked. "I don't know", was the reply, "they need 6 weeks to investigate". "Investigate what?" Was the other question, "I don't know" was the answer, "but they need six weeks". Now a business that cares about what happens in its community, would bother at least to show up. Unless it was a tactic to gain six more weeks to try and change people's (read councilpersons') minds. In the continuance letter they asked councilpersons to travel to their facilities, where they will be shown smiling, high school or college level students, all caucasian but one. These employees will be all (by pure and simple coincidence) be wearing clean and ironed uniforms, they will all be greeting customers in a completely "I didn't absolutely know that you people came here to inspect us", way. Waterway will dine councilpeople and talk to them about what good neighbors thay all are, and how everybody is happy to have them around (commercial areas like the ones they are in (including Bainbridge, OH) don't care). While missing, with outright lack of respect for Council and residents, the meeting where they were supposed to be. The continuance would have been granted just the same. Everybody in Council is trying to be fair. Why then this uncalled act of pure and simple rudeness?
We are open to answers.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
28 comments:
From Anon1
Your comment here is very different than what you posted on the main site. I would think that you would be pleased that another traffic study is being done and that Waterway is willing to pay for it but not choose who will do it. I think the appraisal of homes is also an indication that some semblance of sanity is becoming part of this debate. It sounds like their lawyer agreed to these terms. If he is agreeing to them, then he had some power to represent the firm and make decisions for them. So although Waterway’s executives were not there in person, the lawyer was representing them.
I believe that this is a fair question to ask of you. If this independent traffic study and appraisal does not support your claims, will you accept those results?
I realize that is a tough question to ask of you, but I do think it is fair. You have asked people to support your cause based in part on those issues.
I chose to post another view. If people read the website and the blog, they may want different perspectives, why bother reading twice the same thing?
People are free to reply on this post on both topics, the questions raised here, and the comments on the home page of the website.
If we feel that the study has been done objectively, and that our concerns are effectively addressed, then we may be open to the possibility. But, if we have doubts about any of the issues regarding this proposal, we will keep going.
To all the nogasstation people, please define your expectations clearly. What metrics will satisfy you? If not Waterway, than what do you propose so the rest of us in UH can benefit from even some mild tax relief? Again, what is the bar? Please be specific. I frankly doubt you can.
From anon 1
Thanks for some degree of clarity in your response to my question.
I assume from your postings that your primary concerns were
1. traffic
2. potential loss in property values
If that is a correct statement, then what council has requested should address those issues.
If not Waterway, than what do you propose
That's irrelevant, unless they can put up the capital to make it a reality. Alternative proposals are meaningless unless they have money behind them. That's the point - this is the only proposal anyone with the necessary capital has put forth. The market has spoken.
If traffic is the issue, than what paremeter must be met to satisfy you? If home depreciation is an issue, we are all experiencing that now to some degree. Here again, what is your expectation? You moved near a property with this zoning. To some extent this is your fault, do you feel as if you have no responsibility for that? There is a reason you paid what you did so close to a shopping center, it is called risk. I was not willing to take that risk for this reason when I bought my house. You took it, lost, and now your angry.
BWagner, I would not call a proposal irrelevent. I would assume any proposal would have the capital and investors behind it to execute on it. That is my point. It is easy to complain and be a victim. I would love to see any of these nogasstation people have the fortitude to go start or better yet find people willing to put in what Waterway is. Since they cannot, they need to step aside.
I drove down Lansdale and Bushnell today. Please take down the Hillary and or Obama signs next to the "For Rent signs. It is stupidity by association.
Easy now with the signs comment, let's keep this civil. That is uncalled for. Again, let's keep this above that regardless of where you stand.
I'm glad to be part of a community that is alive and passionate about it's quality of life.
Living across the street from the bp at warrenville...at the Corinthian, I can say that honking car horns and car washes across the street are very annoying.
the taxes generated by the waterway hosing will be offset by the carbon footprint and cost of police, litter cleanup,property value reduction and increased infrastructure wear and tear.
I'm enjoying the dialog in this blog, and am once again greatful for the people power I see.
I would not call a proposal irrelevent. I would assume any proposal would have the capital and investors behind it to execute on it.
Your assumption is based on a lack of context. Read the other threads; UHNOGAS has been challenged to come up with backed proposals and has ignored/declined the challenge.
I can say that honking car horns
and that's why rent is lower on Warrensville than on a side street.
BWagner, you have some great opinions. So are you going to speak on behalf of Waterway moving forward at the council meeting? I agree with your free market ideals but the free market works only when you put your money where you mouth is.
After being against the Waterway Project I have changed my mind.
Traffic problems:
I have never experienced traffic problems at the BP station at Fairmont circle, the convenient store down the road on Warrensville or even the combination gas station/convenient store at Cedar/Green. The car wash will increase traffic BUT Waterway has agreed not to allow the cars to back up on Warrensville and the city can and should enforce this.
Condition of present building:
The present building is an eye sore. The front entrances are not used so in the winter the walks aren't shoveled and the rest of the year trash and leaves drift up against the front. The back which is used as the "main entrances" is worse. Basically alley doors with a old wall separating it from the adjacent property and wood telephone poles with lights on the top. Something needs to replace it but with all the present retail space available and the addition of the north side or Cedar Center soon, retail space is not an option. A professional building is not reasonable as there is also a lot of that space available and I'm sure neighbors wouldn't like a 4 story building blocking out their morning sun.
House values:
Over the last 2 years housing prices in UH has decreased by at least 15%. Great houses in the middle of residential blocks can't be sold. Houses 1,2 or 3 doors down from Warrensville are impossible to sell now and the addition of the Waterway system wouldn't make this any worse and in fact presently you can stand on a side porch and touch the retaining wall. A 10 foot addition of property to their side of the retaining wall should actually improve the property.
Sorry folks but I have changed my mind. Unless another idea that is both concrete and on paper ready to go appears, let the Waterway project go forward.
After reading the Sun Press, it seems clear that Waterway is not going to happen. So Lilly Scivittaro, what is next? What are YOU and your group of "concerned citizens" going to do. My guess, walk away head held high while we have a lower tax base and an eye sore store front. As a member of the silent majority, thank a lot. To the weak council people, specifically Consolo, it would be nice if you thought like business people for the city not politicians concerned about your run for mayor in another year. The heights is dying and you people are responsible for its decline. PLEASE RESPOND. I would love to be wrong here, explain why I am.
First of all Lilly is not UHNOgas so don't direct your questions at her. She is only one of the hundreds of UH residents who spoke up against the Waterway proposed plan. Ask the people at the next council meeting, including the "weak" ones you are referring too what they are going to do. Ask the concerned residents who showed up at every meeting, who wrote letters, and who stayed on this issue no matter what.
OK Anon UHNOGas. Point taken with Lilly. However, I will not ask residents as I have pointed out in prior comments, I went to the council meetings and frankly, when POLICE have to walk down the isles at the end of the meeting b/c you folks are so "level headed", that is why I feel threatened by UHNOGas supporters. Beyond that, since you are clearly against this, maybe you can illuminate the rest of us who have asked some basic questions. If not Waterway, then what is it that you propose? What metrics does Waterway need to satisfy to make this acceptable. Why was Rossman's Sunoco OK but this gas station so scary? Listen up, if this was up to a vote of the public it would pass. The truth is that you people apparently have the time to fight it. You do not represent the majority, just a bunch of people who complain with no plan as to how make things better.
My final question, what will UHNOGas do when this does not pass? I have asked before but will ask again, what is your plan? You have none. You just complain, which is easy to do, but never have a solution. Please respond, I doubt you can answer these questions. Read BWagner's comments. He is spot on.
I have watched from afar but must agree, UHNOGas has adopted what amounts to bullying tactics, I have yet to see them produce any hard data to back them up.
First of all Lilly is not UHNOgas so don't direct your questions at her.
She is the face of UHNOgas on this blog - the effective spokesperson, and the one driving the bus, as evidenced by her censorship practices.
Ask the people at the next council meeting, including the "weak" ones you are referring too what they are going to do.
See, there's that socialist thinking again. It's not their JOB to make the local economy thrive - they've done enough damage already. It's their job to get out of the way and let the private sector do ITS job - and that's what they've failed to do in giving in to a vocal and apparently unruly mob of malcontents in this issue.
Ask the concerned residents who showed up at every meeting, who wrote letters, and who stayed on this issue no matter what.
That would be the aforementioned mob, who've demonstrated no ability to approach this rationally.
I went to the council meetings and frankly, when POLICE have to walk down the isles at the end of the meeting b/c you folks are so "level headed",
Like I said....
If not Waterway, then what is it that you propose?
Well, isn't that obvious?
They want city council to wave its magic wand and create prosperity and economic activity without any traffic, or noise, or having to see (shudder) blue collar workers. They want to buy cheap houses next to commercial districts that magically generate tons of revenue, without any real visible activity, so that those cheap houses will appreciate to be worth as much as the houses on Edgerton for which they weren't willing to pay. They want clean, fully fueled cars, but they want to wash and fuel them in someone ELSE'S neighborhood. They want low taxes, in a community with no commerce, at least no commerce that impinges on their awareness. Maybe they're hoping Keebler will locate a production facility in UH, in a hollow tree in Purvis Park, and the magic elves will pay lots of taxes on their invisible activities.
I suppose they'll settle for city government to facilitating and subsidizing the construction of more boutique overpriced retail space to sit vacant after the initial tenants discover the carriage trade won't venture that far from I-271.
My final question, what will UHNOGas do when this does not pass?
They'll rejoice at their supposed victory, not realizing they've killed the goose that lays the golden egg. Then they'll scratch their heads and wonder why nobody wants to invest in their city. They'll watch University Square get emptier and emptier, as an ever increasing percentage of the parking deck is roped off with yellow safety tape, and more jack columns are placed to shore it up, until it's declared unsafe, and the owners try to dump it off on some commercial slumlord to cut their losses. They'll watch the S.Euc. side of Cedar Center get rebuilt, and increase the glut of space no one can afford to rent, and wonder where all the businesses that used to serve the neighborhood went. They'll watch JCU's student body get rowdier and rowdier, as they lose more well behaved geeks to schools that are able to expand and build high tech lab facilities, and they fill the empty slots with more hard partying marketing majors. Through all this, they'll sit in smug satisfaction at their Stepford-like control over everyone else's activities, until the chickens come home to roost, and the taxes skyrocket because homeowners have to pay the entire bill for things like valet garbage collection.
I have watched from afar but must agree, UHNOGas has adopted what amounts to bullying tactics, I have yet to see them produce any hard data to back them up.
This entire campaign has been based on a knee jerk emotional reaction from the start.
BWagner, I could not agree more. I do not know I would called these folks socialist so much as I would environmental/populist fascist. When I was at the council meeting, they raised this argument to a level of their way or no way. One thing is for sure, they do not get free market economics. Read this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120450306595906431.html
Even when people want to come here, we drive them away. And don't say "well it's just a car wash/gas station." This attitude is indicative of why Ohio is getting crushed in the global market place. Can't blame that on NAFTA. (I am sure UHNoGas is not for free trade either).
I do not know I would called these folks socialist so much as I would environmental/populist fascist.
Fascism is just an extreme subset of socialism - the key being collectivism over individual initiative and liberty.
And don't say "well it's just a car wash/gas station."
It's an investment, and the only one likely to be made at that location
So now the city has noticed that their masterwork, the garage at University Square, is falling apart.
One needn't look very far to see why it's happening. At the base of all the entrance ramps to the upper levels are signs stating a vehicle weight limit of 4000 lb. For all the suburban SUV warriors parking up there who have no clue how about the relationship of their vehicles to these signs, the curb weight of a 2006 Ford Explorer is 4440 to 4777 lb. depending on options, a 2006 Dodge Durango is over 5000 lb., a 2007 Ford F150 is 5500 lb. Even the Dodge Grand Caravan minivan is 4252 lb. and most of the larger crossover SUV's will exceed 4000 lb. with a full tank of gas and four adult passengers. On any given day, one can observe one third of the vehicles on the upper levels exceeding the posted weight limits. Drivers operating with rank ignorance and indifference, while troubling, aren't the cause of the problem. The real blame falls to those who designed a structure that, assuming the signs aren't there for mere esthetic reasons, requires a weight limit that excludes nearly half the vehicles on the road today. This is what happens when unaccountable government plans a project instead of leaving it to the private sector.
BWagner, "This is what happens when unaccountable government plans a project instead of leaving it to the private sector." Get your facts straight. The garage and project were both planned/engineered by Starwood, not UH. They simply sign off. Sure, you can blame them for that but that is where it really ends. While I am for Waterway, your analogy here is hollow. The private sector bungled this design, not the public one. You want to hold the government accountable but give the developers a pass (judging from your comments). Regardless, the new owners are stepping up and rectifying the situation, not because they are good citizens, but b/c it makes good business sense. You need solid parking to bring in revenue.
Lily or UHNOGas, can you answer the persons question:
"What metrics does Waterway need to satisfy to make this acceptable. Why was Rossman's Sunoco OK but this gas station so scary? " This seems reasonable to ask.
Just to throw out a new thought...
things that used to work, don't work anymore.
Making things cheaper in order to compete has eliminated U.S. manufacturing.
Paying for carbon footprints will soon add costs to everything we do.
Innovative new thinking is needed.
More big box stores and corner mega drug stores is not the answer.
How about asking John Carroll University to contribute their fair share of community involvement since taxes are not available from them.
If not in tax revenue then maybe brain power.They have engineering, environmental, social and business savy.
A greenhouse that generates solar and wind power can be a profitable and a beautiful addition to our community.
As you already see...retail is not the answer.
We are all experiencing a new era.
One of food, water and clean air shortages.
The Bush family has purchased thousands of acres of land with water rights.
As fossil fuel becomes a thing of the past,water will be the next
necessary product.
And those that control that which we are dependent on...will again control us.
Old thinking doesn't work anymore.
my thoughts.
Waterway?
Maybe another way!
ralph solonitz
www.ralphstuff.com
It has been awhile since I've visited. I stopped by because I noticed that they hadn't torn down that eyesore of old storefronts to build this new business that so many of us were excited to see come into our city. Seems like a bunch of loudmouth malcontents may have spoiled it.
Well, if Waterway doesn't come to UH, I am sure some other more forwarding think town will welcome them. Thanks neighbors, from the bottom of my wallet when I pay my next tax bill.
Get your facts straight. The garage and project were both planned/engineered by Starwood, not UH. They simply sign off. Sure, you can blame them for that but that is where it really ends. While I am for Waterway, your analogy here is hollow. The private sector bungled this design, not the public one.
Guess again. It was TIF financed by the county port authority. A private lender would not have financed such shortsightedness. Please remember, University Square was built when banks were falling over each other to lend money to anyone for anything - when they were soliciting refinances of mobile homes. In such a climate, public financing is only needed when some aspect of the plan is so deeply flawed that even such a profligate lending market won't touch it. The entire project never would have gotten off the ground if it was left entirely to the private sector. The garage had to be publicly financed, because even with a substandard structure, the business plan didn't pass private lenders' smell test.
You want to hold the government accountable but give the developers a pass (judging from your comments).
I never said anything about giving them a pass. They're already facing their just consequences in the failure of their business venture, as the vacancies mount. They'll probably lose their shirt, and then the taxpayers will be left holding a bad loan, just like with Presser's diner (where the clue phone has just rung a third time with yet another business failure at that location.) It's like a mob hit - the shooter is guilty, but so is the boss who put up the bounty.
Regardless, the new owners are stepping up and rectifying the situation,
So they claim. Structures like that can't just be patched up. The only real fix is a tear down and rebuild, which the tenants can't survive.
Making things cheaper in order to compete has eliminated U.S. manufacturing.
Unions and protectionismeliminated US manufacturing by making it uncompetitive.
Paying for carbon footprints will soon add costs to everything we do.
Only if we listen to those who claim the sky is falling.
How about asking John Carroll University to contribute their fair share of community involvement since taxes are not available from them. If not in tax revenue then maybe brain power.They have engineering, environmental, social and business savy.
They do not have an engineering school, and perhaps they would be more than happy to offer assistance if City Hall didn't make them a public whipping boy.
A greenhouse that generates solar and wind power can be a profitable and a beautiful addition to our community.
Ah yes, with a pasture for the unicorns to graze.
Who's going to pay for it? Why should they - there's no way it will be profitable. Maybe those Keebler elves?
just thinking out loud.
my ideas may not be realistic...but, it's good that this community is discussing alternative solutions.
what's wrong with a unicorn grazing park. maybe an ass hitching post too...ralph solonitz
"In the continuance letter they asked councilpersons to travel to their facilities, where they will be shown smiling, high school or college level students, all caucasian but one. These employees will be all (by pure and simple coincidence) be wearing clean and ironed uniforms, they will all be greeting customers in a completely "I didn't absolutely know that you people came here to inspect us", way."
This could not be further from the truth. I am a regular customer at the Bainbridge Waterway location and they already do these kind of things each and every day already.
Post a Comment